| Submitter | Alexander Plavin |
|---|---|
| Date | June 26, 2013, 8:44 a.m. |
| Message ID | <0de0cddeac5c624189ab.1372236275@debian-alexander.dolgopa> |
| Download | mbox | patch |
| Permalink | /patch/1750/ |
| State | Superseded |
| Headers | show |
Comments
Op 26-06-13 10:44, Alexander Plavin schreef: > # HG changeset patch > # User Alexander Plavin <me@aplavin.ru> > # Date 1372236081 -14400 > # Wed Jun 26 12:41:21 2013 +0400 > # Node ID 0de0cddeac5c624189ab8783de38d0a8b943d113 > # Parent f21a44fe66da3d66313b71015947456f5a3789cd > hgweb: wrap long lines in file source Mmh, personally I’d prefer to see a horizontal scroll bar... No editor does wrapping, either... ~Laurens
Op 26-06-13 14:17, Kevin Bullock schreef: > On 26 Jun 2013, at 6:41 AM, Laurens Holst wrote: >> Op 26-06-13 10:44, Alexander Plavin schreef: >>> # HG changeset patch >>> # User Alexander Plavin <me@aplavin.ru> >>> # Date 1372236081 -14400 >>> # Wed Jun 26 12:41:21 2013 +0400 >>> # Node ID 0de0cddeac5c624189ab8783de38d0a8b943d113 >>> # Parent f21a44fe66da3d66313b71015947456f5a3789cd >>> hgweb: wrap long lines in file source >> Mmh, personally I’d prefer to see a horizontal scroll bar... >> >> No editor does wrapping, either... > Emacs and Vim both do. By default? For editing source code? And people actually have that enabled? ~Laurens
On 26 June 2013 08:52, Laurens Holst <laurens.nospam@grauw.nl> wrote:
> By default? For editing source code? And people actually have that enabled?
Yes, yes, and yes.
- Jordi G. H.
Would you really like to see smth like this: http://aplavin.ru/2013-06-26-183449_626x1160_scrot.png, and more important, with very inconvenient scrollbar at the very bottom of the page? The first time I saw this it made me think about a bug in displaying. 2013/6/26 Laurens Holst <laurens.nospam@grauw.nl>: > Op 26-06-13 10:44, Alexander Plavin schreef: > >> # HG changeset patch >> # User Alexander Plavin <me@aplavin.ru> >> # Date 1372236081 -14400 >> # Wed Jun 26 12:41:21 2013 +0400 >> # Node ID 0de0cddeac5c624189ab8783de38d0a8b943d113 >> # Parent f21a44fe66da3d66313b71015947456f5a3789cd >> hgweb: wrap long lines in file source > > > Mmh, personally I’d prefer to see a horizontal scroll bar... > > No editor does wrapping, either... > > ~Laurens > > _______________________________________________ > Mercurial-devel mailing list > Mercurial-devel@selenic.com > http://selenic.com/mailman/listinfo/mercurial-devel
Op 26-06-13 16:43, Alexander Plavin schreef: > Would you really like to see smth like this: > http://aplavin.ru/2013-06-26-183449_626x1160_scrot.png Of course that is not the alternative I was suggesting :). If memory recalls, adding “overflow-x: auto” should cut off any exceeding text on the right, and make it horizontally scrollable. (Ideally you would make the alternating bars span the entire scrollable width, but unfortunately that’s impossible without resorting to tables.) > and more > important, with very inconvenient scrollbar at the very bottom of the > page? The first time I saw this it made me think about a bug in > displaying. Scrollbar at the bottom is a little inconvenient, sure, but you can also scroll horizontally with many mouse wheels, or by middle-clicking and moving the cursor to the right, or by moving two fingers to the right on a touch pad, or by selecting text and dragging to your right. The scrollbars are hardly ever being used any more nowadays. I am not in favour of wrapping the source code, because that can visually disturb the indentation. It may not be so bad on desktop-sized displays, but especially on smaller screens like tablets or mobile phones this can render code virtually unreadable. In some languages (e.g. our beloved python) new lines can even significantly alter the meaning of code. Emacs and vim aside, editors normally don’t wrap lines and people will be authoring code with this in mind. Programmers typically expect to exert control of where and how the lines wrap in the editor, and expect it to be displayed as such. ~Laurens
2013/6/26 Laurens Holst <laurens.nospam@grauw.nl>: > Op 26-06-13 16:43, Alexander Plavin schreef: > >> Would you really like to see smth like this: >> http://aplavin.ru/2013-06-26-183449_626x1160_scrot.png > > > Of course that is not the alternative I was suggesting :). > > If memory recalls, adding “overflow-x: auto” should cut off any exceeding > text on the right, and make it horizontally scrollable. > > (Ideally you would make the alternating bars span the entire scrollable > width, but unfortunately that’s impossible without resorting to tables.) > > >> and more >> important, with very inconvenient scrollbar at the very bottom of the >> page? The first time I saw this it made me think about a bug in >> displaying. > > > Scrollbar at the bottom is a little inconvenient, sure, but you can also > scroll horizontally with many mouse wheels, or by middle-clicking and moving > the cursor to the right, or by moving two fingers to the right on a touch > pad, or by selecting text and dragging to your right. The scrollbars are > hardly ever being used any more nowadays. I've not meant using the scrollbars, but just looking at them to see that it's not the full width. > > I am not in favour of wrapping the source code, because that can visually > disturb the indentation. It may not be so bad on desktop-sized displays, but > especially on smaller screens like tablets or mobile phones this can render > code virtually unreadable. In some languages (e.g. our beloved python) new > lines can even significantly alter the meaning of code. The line numbers and stripes help in this case :) > > Emacs and vim aside, editors normally don’t wrap lines and people will be > authoring code with this in mind. Programmers typically expect to exert > control of where and how the lines wrap in the editor, and expect it to be > displayed as such. > > ~Laurens >
On 26 June 2013 13:07, Laurens Holst <laurens.nospam@grauw.nl> wrote: > Scrollbar at the bottom is a little inconvenient, sure, but you can also > scroll horizontally with many mouse wheels, or by middle-clicking and moving > the cursor to the right, or by moving two fingers to the right on a touch > pad, or by selecting text and dragging to your right. The scrollbars are > hardly ever being used any more nowadays. Do most users know this? If so, do we have evidence that most users prefer this? If not, are you planning to educate them? Otherwise, do we have any evidence that users prefer one thing or the other? > I am not in favour of wrapping the source code, because that can visually > disturb the indentation. It's possible to wrap and maintain indentation; e.g. Kate does this, as does this Emacs package: https://github.com/emacsmirror/adaptive-wrap-prefix/blob/elpa/adaptive-wrap-prefix.el I'm not sure how feasible this is for a web interface. > Emacs and vim aside, editors normally don’t wrap lines Kate does it, gedit does it, textmate too, but apparently only whatever editor you use doesn't. - Jordi G. H.
Op 26-06-13 19:21, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso schreef: > On 26 June 2013 13:07, Laurens Holst <laurens.nospam@grauw.nl> wrote: > >> Scrollbar at the bottom is a little inconvenient, sure, but you can also >> scroll horizontally with many mouse wheels, or by middle-clicking and moving >> the cursor to the right, or by moving two fingers to the right on a touch >> pad, or by selecting text and dragging to your right. The scrollbars are >> hardly ever being used any more nowadays. > Do most users know this? If so, do we have evidence that most users > prefer this? If not, are you planning to educate them? I do not think any “special education” is needed to explain people how to scroll horizontally... > Otherwise, do > we have any evidence that users prefer one thing or the other? No, but I tried to present arguments. Do you have evidence? >> I am not in favour of wrapping the source code, because that can visually >> disturb the indentation. > It's possible to wrap and maintain indentation; e.g. Kate does this, > as does this Emacs package: > > https://github.com/emacsmirror/adaptive-wrap-prefix/blob/elpa/adaptive-wrap-prefix.el > > I'm not sure how feasible this is for a web interface. Not very, I think. Also, line breaks still have significance in some languages, this wouldn’t solve that. >> Emacs and vim aside, editors normally don’t wrap lines > Kate does it, gedit does it, textmate too, but apparently only > whatever editor you use doesn't. Pretty much every one of them? Eclipse, IntelliJ, Visual Studio, MonoDevelop, Netbeans, XCode, you name it... Even my old colleague who used to use Vim for sure didn’t have it set to line wrap. I mean it makes sense for plain text documents, and I guess the editors you named are intended as generic text editors, but not for source code. If you’d be editing source code in them you’d be turning off the wrap option in a jiffy. Also, fwiw, Github doesn’t wrap either, nor does Stack Overflow, nor does the Android documentation. Nor will anything else on the web that shows source code. I dare you to find a place ;P. ~Laurens
Op 26-06-13 19:11, Alexander Plavin schreef: > 2013/6/26 Laurens Holst <laurens.nospam@grauw.nl>: >>> and more >>> important, with very inconvenient scrollbar at the very bottom of the >>> page? The first time I saw this it made me think about a bug in >>> displaying. >> >> Scrollbar at the bottom is a little inconvenient, sure, but you can also >> scroll horizontally with many mouse wheels, or by middle-clicking and moving >> the cursor to the right, or by moving two fingers to the right on a touch >> pad, or by selecting text and dragging to your right. The scrollbars are >> hardly ever being used any more nowadays. > I've not meant using the scrollbars, but just looking at them to see > that it's not the full width. I see. Usually you can see this from the content, because half of a letter or a word is missing, or a statement isn’t complete. But I agree it’s not 100% ideal. It would be nicer if we could get the background to match the overflow, so that we can use the horizontal scrollbar on the window without the overflow rendering. But... CSS can be fussy about controlling the horizontal width. >> I am not in favour of wrapping the source code, because that can visually >> disturb the indentation. It may not be so bad on desktop-sized displays, but >> especially on smaller screens like tablets or mobile phones this can render >> code virtually unreadable. In some languages (e.g. our beloved python) new >> lines can even significantly alter the meaning of code. > The line numbers and stripes help in this case :) Somewhat. :) Not enough in my opinion. I’d rather have the source presented to me exactly the way it is. ~Laurens
On 26 June 2013 16:02, Laurens Holst <laurens.nospam@grauw.nl> wrote: > I do not think any “special education” is needed to explain people how to > scroll horizontally... Of course there is. People typically don't know that a mouse wheel is a middle click. I've had to teach this to several people. Not all touchpads allow two-finger swipes, and on those that do, not all people know that this is possible. > Op 26-06-13 19:21, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso schreef: >> Otherwise, do we have any evidence that users prefer one thing or >> the other? > > > No, but I tried to present arguments. Do you have evidence? There is old research against it: http://www.usability.gov/pdfs/chapter8.pdf Ten years later, there is still some flak against it: http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/30623/have-the-attitude-changed-the-last-ten-years-on-horizontal-scrolling-on-web-site http://www.experiencesolutions.co.uk/blog/2011/12/12/a-ux-perspective-on-horizontal-scrolling/ > Also, line breaks still have significance in some languages, this wouldn’t > solve that. There can be clear indication of line numbers on the left side of the display that shows that there isn't an actual hard newline here. It's just a convenience of presentation. >>> Emacs and vim aside, editors normally don’t wrap lines >> >> Kate does it, gedit does it, textmate too, but apparently only >> whatever editor you use doesn't. > > Pretty much every one of them? Eclipse, IntelliJ, Visual Studio, > MonoDevelop, Netbeans, XCode, Ah, the IDEs scroll horizontally, the text editors don't. I see why we're coming from different perspectives here. > If you’d be editing source code in them you’d be turning off the > wrap option in a jiffy. No, I leave it on. > Also, fwiw, Github doesn’t wrap either, nor does Stack Overflow, nor > does the Android documentation. Nor will anything else on the web > that shows source code. I dare you to find a place ;P. Pastebin does: http://pastebin.com/fBVpnY9Q So does Google code (line 10): https://code.google.com/r/darcymason-refactor/source/browse/pydicom/fileio/testfind.py?spec=svn61b7b2ba465756cc22bbc8583ddd3da67c19df58&r=61b7b2ba465756cc22bbc8583ddd3da67c19df58 - Jordi G. H.
Op 26-6-2013 22:32, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso schreef: >> I do not think any “special education” is needed to explain people how to >> scroll horizontally... > Of course there is. People typically don't know that a mouse wheel is > a middle click. I've had to teach this to several people. Not all > touchpads allow two-finger swipes, and on those that do, not all > people know that this is possible. We’re talking programmers here :). It’s source control management. >>> Otherwise, do we have any evidence that users prefer one thing or >>> the other? >> >> No, but I tried to present arguments. Do you have evidence? > There is old research against it: > > http://www.usability.gov/pdfs/chapter8.pdf > > Ten years later, there is still some flak against it: > > http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/30623/have-the-attitude-changed-the-last-ten-years-on-horizontal-scrolling-on-web-site > > http://www.experiencesolutions.co.uk/blog/2011/12/12/a-ux-perspective-on-horizontal-scrolling/ That is about horizontal scrolling in general, not with the specific requirements of source code in mind. If this was plain text I would have no qualms about it. >> Also, line breaks still have significance in some languages, this wouldn’t >> solve that. > There can be clear indication of line numbers on the left side of the > display that shows that there isn't an actual hard newline here. It's > just a convenience of presentation. Personally I don’t think that’s sufficient. >>>> Emacs and vim aside, editors normally don’t wrap lines >>> Kate does it, gedit does it, textmate too, but apparently only >>> whatever editor you use doesn't. >> Pretty much every one of them? Eclipse, IntelliJ, Visual Studio, >> MonoDevelop, Netbeans, XCode, > Ah, the IDEs scroll horizontally, the text editors don't. I see why > we're coming from different perspectives here. Maybe yes :). I would like to emphasise that SCM’s primary target is to manage source code. You wouldn’t show source code in a proportional-width font either (that’s the default mode for OS X’s TextEdit ;)). In HTML, <blockquote> and <pre> don’t have different presentations for no reason. >> If you’d be editing source code in them you’d be turning off the >> wrap option in a jiffy. > No, I leave it on. > >> Also, fwiw, Github doesn’t wrap either, nor does Stack Overflow, nor >> does the Android documentation. Nor will anything else on the web >> that shows source code. I dare you to find a place ;P. > Pastebin does: > > http://pastebin.com/fBVpnY9Q > > So does Google code (line 10): > > https://code.google.com/r/darcymason-refactor/source/browse/pydicom/fileio/testfind.py?spec=svn61b7b2ba465756cc22bbc8583ddd3da67c19df58&r=61b7b2ba465756cc22bbc8583ddd3da67c19df58 Ok, that challenge was asking to be beaten :). I raise you Bitbucket, MSDN and docs.python.org! That Google Code example actually kinda shows what sucks about it; that string doesn’t look right. It would be worse if that particular line was indented; you can see it in a number of other files there. Now multiply this by about every other line for a worst case (hard to emulate here cause Google Code has a minimum width set). The structure would get completely lost in the wrapping noise. I’d still like to mention that Github and Stack Overflow aren’t the lowest among mortals, and that they employ visual and UX designers and receive tons of user feedback putting these things into practice every day. Same applies to all those IDEs out there. But by now I think I’ve said about all I can on the topic. ~Laurens
Patch
diff -r f21a44fe66da -r 0de0cddeac5c mercurial/templates/static/style-paper.css --- a/mercurial/templates/static/style-paper.css Tue Jun 25 21:02:22 2013 +0400 +++ b/mercurial/templates/static/style-paper.css Wed Jun 26 12:41:21 2013 +0400 @@ -200,8 +200,8 @@ .source, .sourcefirst, .sourcelast { font-family: monospace; - white-space: pre; padding: 1px 4px; + white-space: pre-wrap; font-size: 90%; } .sourcefirst { border-bottom: 1px solid #999; font-weight: bold; }